twitter google

Master Tong does not approve

If you were watching carefully on Saturday night, you might have noticed Urijah Faber’s nutty muay thai coach Master Tong spoil the Faber / Cruz decision. Check him out sneaking a peek at Bruce Buffer’s card and walking away in disgust.

(via KevMann @ The Underground Forums)

  • thingvolds says:

    Dancey McPillowfists scored a lot of points, but faber got what, 3 knockdowns in 3 rounds? i prefer the system of considering the fight as a whole as opposed to winning rounds with points.

  • Mixed Martial Adam says:

    I hate Cruz and love Faber. I love him so much that I’d like to keep him as a tiny pet and let him sleep at the foot of my bed (God help anyone that broke in).

    Anyway, Cruz brought the boring and Faber brought the excitement – but Cruz ultimately won the fight according the unified rules. I think the judges were a little off on their scoring (50-45??? Shut the fuck up), but Cruz landed more frequently, stuffed Faber’s TDs and stayed busier with his hands. I still hate Cruz and the fight was super close, but in my opinion Faber lost and maybe next time he’ll adjust his game-plan and pull off a win.

    Judging the fight as a whole makes sense in this instance, but every fighter that has been beaten down horribly and came back to win by decision in the later rounds would be hung out to dry – and that’s not fair either. The MMA judges are terrible, but judging fights will always be subjective no matter what system is in place. This is why we need to cover fighters in those little white ping pong balls and have robots judge the fights. Beautiful, objective robots.

  • P W says:

    It shouldn’t have to be all that complicated. Check out my logic (or lack thereof), the goal of MMA is to finish your opponent, so you can either:

    A) Let the fights go on until someone has accomplished that goal (Royce vs. Sakuraba style), or

    B) Let all fights which go the distance end in an automatic draw (Sorry guys, you both failed, try harder next time, 0-0), or

    C) Let judges decide who came CLOSEST to finishing his opponent

    That’s where the judging has to start. Faber wins.

  • P W says:

    I can’t believe that I just read someone claiming that the ultimate goal of MMA is NOT to finish your opponent. Remeber UFC 1 (you don’t need to backtrack a thousand years, 1993 works just as fine)?

  • Grappo says:

    haha, didn’t notice that.


    here’s a slightly better version



    the Maz looks drunk as shit.  or maybe he’s just exhausted from having to grapevine his ass around the cage for 25 minutes.

  • Mixed Martial Adam says:

    ^^^ The ultimate goal of MMA is to win the fight – finishing your opponent happens to be one way to do this but it isn’t the entire goal of the sport (it’s YOUR perceived goal). The goal of MMA is to win the fight using the best skill and technique – to prove that your skills and game-plan are superior that night (through a decision, submission or KO). A finish is nice (and boy am I pissy when a card is short on finishes), but it comes secondary to winning as MMA is a test of skill. 

    UFC 1 and the Zuffa era UFC are two entirely different sports, they are apples and oranges, ultimate cage fighting and MMA. Why don’t we get rid of weight classes, gloves, doctor stoppages and rules? When a fighter gets cut the other fighter should stick his finger in and twist it around ripping his flesh for a finish. Wouldn’t that be fun? Next stop regulation in NY!

    A) Letting fighters go until someone is finished is retarded as there are only so many minutes of PPV time available and no one wants to see two guys go at it sloppily for an hour. How would you like it if the entire main card never aired because two of the undercard fighters were still going at it? Give your head a shake for suggesting this.

    B) Calling every fight that goes the distance a DRAW is even more retarded. You’re saying Cain vs Kongo should have been a draw because there wasn’t a finish? How about Dos Santos vs Carwin – was that a draw too? GSP vs Fitch was definitely a draw, screw GSP for trying his ass off and beating the shit out an opponent that has never been finished in the UFC. That would be ridiculous and your logic hurts my brain. Like really hurts it. I need a beer now. Give your head two shakes for suggesting this.

    C) This isn’t Stockton Rules Fighting and asking a judge to imagine a what-if scenario is asking for ignorance, corruption and judging based on a fantasy world of fighting where things “almost” happened. I’ll imagine you giving your head three shakes for suggesting this.

    It’s obvious that you watch fighting JUST for a finish and can’t enjoy a good show of skill between two athletes. You probably paint your chest and drink Bud Light Lime as well. Go watch a bar fight or professional wrestling. The rest of us watch a sport where even incompetent judging is welcome over going back to UFC 1 when fighters would literally punch each other in the nuts until someone fell down. My head is shaking for you.

  • Mixed Martial Adam says:

    ^^^ The goal of MMA is to compete and win withing the rules of the sport. Finishing someone is a bonus, not the goal of the match. It may be the goal of the fighter but not entire point of the match. This isn’t the Colosseum a thousand years ago, this a combat sport with athletes competing.

    At this level and with strong skill sets, sometimes fighters can’t be finished but their bout is still a beautiful display. By your standard of judging it may as well be two guys swinging baseball bats at each other until one dies rather than a skilled martial arts fight. All three of those judging options are only applicable to 1996, not to 2011 with skilled athletes competing in regulated bouts.

  • Blackula Jonez says:

    Thanks for dropping knowledge MMAdam, mma fans really need to understand the nature of SPORT you operate within the rules against your opponent and if there is no finish you go the judges, simple as that.


    Fans need to stop acting like they are owed finishes, we watch fights in the UFC to see the elites compete, these same elite fighters got their status by being exceptional fighters and leaving very little opening for defeat.

    If my son or another loved one fought I would want them to fight like Cruz, I can appreciate the style of a Wanderlei or Leben, but that style always ends gruesomely.

    Cruz needs to take a page out of Bispings book and play up the heel angle so people will pay to see him lose and then become enraged when opponents can barely hit him or outwrestle him.

  • Blackula Jonez says:

    I have also rewatched the fight and I only acknowledge the knockdown in the 4th actually hurting Cruz. Even though he popped back up and got a takedown he really slowed down after that punch. The other two in the first and second rounds were mainly due to Cruz being on 1 foot/getting hit while jumping around.

  • P W says:

    Man, I thought I broke it down so simply I couldn’t be misunderstood, and then it turns into this. Oh well, it’s all good fun.


    Adam: “MMA is a test of skill.”

    Yes, but WHICH skills should the judges reward? How can you tell when someone is ahead? That’s what are trying to get at, right? My point is that when you boil it down it should be finishing skills (and not blanketing skills or wall-n-stall skills or whatever get guys wins nowadays).


    Blackula: “you operate within the rules…”

    Let’s IMPROVE the rules, IMPROVE the judging criteria, because they currently both stink, THEN, by all means, operate away!


    Adam: “It’s obvious that you watch fighting JUST for a finish and can’t enjoy a good show of skill between two athletes.”

    You couldn’t be more wrong. For me it’s all about technique. I hate brawling.


    “You probably paint your chest and drink Bud Light Lime as well.”

    Hahaha, I actually wrote a little joke about that in a different post (Besides, I’m European and I don’t think we get Bud Light Lime here. I’ll check the bottled water section of the supermarket next time to make sure).


    “The rest of us watch a sport where even incompetent judging is welcome …”

    … but I’m not satisfied with incompetent judging! I want to give the judges a simple hint what to look for in a fight. I want to have an idea about who won a fight BEFORE Buffer reads the score cards. Right now it’s like flipping a coin.


    “This isn’t Stockton Rules Fighting”

    Exactly! That’s exactly what I’m saying! For me “damage” is NOT that important. It’s not about accumulation, it’s about who comes closest to finishing. That’s my whole point!


    My earlier post was supposed to be interpreted like this: Premise -> A -> B -> C. A has already been tried and B is just plain ridiculous, which leaves us with C (you didn’t really need to point that out back to me, I wrote it you know). My problem is that MMA somehow ended up with “D” which I can’t trace the historical lineage of, or the thought behind it (makes me think there is no thought behind it).

  • Redping says:

    well volds thought Faber won so that settles it. I wasn’t exactly unsure, I thought there would be SOME idiots who really love faber who thought he won because he landed louder punches. But after that final round with Cruz’s domination of the mat, and the fact that these ‘knockdowns’ occured against an opponent who was travelling the speed of light on one leg, fell down and was immediately on his feet again, I’m really not sure if i would call that a ‘knockdown’. i thought a knockdown was when you hit them with a shot that is so powerful that the FORCE OF THE SHOT forces them to the ground, not the fact that you caught them off balance and they’re very mobile. I mean, does that mean every time you kick an opponents leg out when they’re hopping, it’s a knockdown? Overeem definitely beat werdum then i suppose. Cruz won that fight, it was very close but the final rounds sinched it and though he slowed a bit in round 4 i really didn’t think it was enough. Faber’s punches were simply louder because cruz was moving forwards more aka winning

  • frickshun says:

    P Dubs–>agree w/your last post. We’re officially besties now!! We need to create a secret handshake though……

    PS: Judges decisions suck b/c we shoehorned our sport into boxing rules to fast track sanctioning. Since we don’t score knockdowns like boxing, we need to be more liberal in taking a point away for damage or a rasslin clinic. Eventually, things will change. Maybe. Or not. Either way, I have a new best friend who will let me crash on his couch when I come to Yurop. Where is that again?

  • Blackula Jonez says:

    I am all for improving the rules, Knees on the ground, 12-6 elbows, the less safe zones the better.


    But saying a guy won a fight with 3 knockdown punches that didn’t lead to him finishing, hopping on the downed opponent and maintaining top position or dazing his opponent and hurting him for the rest of the round.

    Njokouani didn’t drop Andre Winner but he clearly hurt him and rained strike after strike on him without fear of a counter because Winner was in survival mode.

    Faber NEVER had Cruz in survival mode and was outstruck every round, Cruz started every round with a power strike and always landed. Faber landed the 3 heaviest strike but was NEVER CLOSE TO FINISHING THE FIGHT.

    It was a close and ultra competitive fight, in the end I have to give Cruz the nod due to his workrate. As a title challenger if you are going to get outstruck and the grappling is a stalemate with the champ going for more takedowns attempts than you and you don’t finish but land 3 power strikes that drop but do not hurt or even cut open the champ, you don’t deserve the belt.

  • Blackula Jonez says:

    Also holding onto the cage for more than 5 seconds after 1 warning should get you an immediate point deductioni.

  • Oontyex says:

    agree with PW –

    – the sport was created to be the sport of fighting, intially to see which martial art was strongest when tested, the ‘strongest’ turned out to be a combination of a few key arts

    – the rules that were added in/ judging were done for practical reasons (like adding in timed rounds due to limitations of time for the event), and to try and fast track sanctioning

    in trying to rush through getting sanctioned it got crammed into boxing and ambiguous terms like ‘effective’ got addded in
    -even if you feel that that was a huge change in the ‘aim’ of the sport, you have to ask , effective in terms of achieving what?
    – if not in terms of trying to finish the opponent, by what criteria is effective striking defined?

    – lay and pray, wall and stall, last min take downs before rounds end and this humming bird bullshit where a guy avoids most of the fight in between a couple of powerless jabs are abuses of bad terminology in the rules, it should not be seen as awesome gamesmanship, but highlight the need to clarify the phrasing of rules/ scoring etc

  • P W says:

    Glad to see some people understand what I’m getting at.

    Blackula: With you 100% on those rule changes.


    Look, it will be impossible to devise judging criteria which will always get it right and never lead to any controversies. Some fights are just extremely close – draws even. What’s most important though is that the criteria are SIMPLE.

    To be brutally honest, the judges don’t give a fuck about MMA. They don’t really know what they hell they are watching, and that’s not likely to change any time soon. If the criteria are too complex and require too much insight into the art of fighting, the moronic judges are just gonna come up with their own simplifications. Just look how the criteria about having an advantageous position quickly became “who ever is on top wins”, and now probably hurts the judging more than it helps.

    Further more, MMA IS AN UNFAIR SPORT – ask Chael Sonnen. You can be ahead a whole fight and still lose in the final seconds. But this “cruelness” is what makes MMA so great, and I feel that dynamism should be reflected in the judging.

    And yes, according to my judging criterion, Silva would have won that fight even if Sonnen were able to – let’s say – pull out of the triangle with a purple face last second. No doubt people would have a hard time accepting that decision. Fuck I can honestly barely do it myself, but at the same time I can’t come up with any other sort of overarching judging criterion that isn’t arbitrary and/or gives fighters the wrong incentives.

    As for Faber vs Cruz, I wouldn’t say Faber was ever all that close to finishing the fight, but he was closer that Cruz, and that’s all that really matters.

  • frickshun says: